Glenn Leyburn and Lisa Barros D’Sa told David Hennessy about Saipan, the new film about the bust up between Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy in preparation for the 2002 World Cup.
Saipan, the new film about the infamous fallout between Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy on the eve of the 2002 World Cup, screens at this week’s Irish Film Festival London ahead of its January release.
Saipan was a seminal moment in not just Irish sports history but Irish history.
In 2002 Republic of Ireland had qualified for the World Cup in Japan/ South Korea.
However, before a ball had been kicked, Roy Keane had left the training camp at Saipan to return home.
People were shocked as, instead of training for the biggest international tournament in the world, there was rolling news footage of Keane walking his dog Triggs at home in Manchester.
Keane, used to the highest of standards at Manchester United, was not happy with many things at Ireland’s training camp on the small island of Saipan. He would famously blow up at goalkeepers including Alan Kelly for not being available for a training match.
It would all come to the boil when Keane gave a press interview detailing his frustrations.
Challenged on it in front of the whole squad, Keane blew up at McCarthy.
We will never know exactly what was said but something that particularly upset Keane was the suggestion that he faked an injury to not play in the second leg of Ireland’s play- off against Iran.
Keane, never known for compromising on the field or off it, told McCarthy that he didn’t rate him as a player or a manager or indeed as a person.
It’s also said that Keane said McCarthy was not even Irish having been born and raised in Yorkshire.
There had long been tension between Keane and McCarthy all the way back to an international tour of America in 1992 when McCarthy, then Jack Charlton’s aging skipper, reprimanded the young player Keane for his lateness only to get a caustic reply.
Éanna Hardwicke, recognisable from Normal People, Smother and the GAA film Lakelands, plays Keane in the new film while Steve Coogan, known for his Alan Partridge character, writing and starring in Philomena and more recently playing the infamous Jimmy Saville, plays McCarthy.
The supporting cast includes Jamie Beamish (Derry Girls), Alex Murphy (The Young Offenders) and London- Irish actor/ singer- songwriter Niall McNamee.
Glenn Leyburn and Lisa Barros D’Sa direct the drama. It is not the first time they have tackled real life characters from Irish history. The last time The Irish World interviewed them it was about Good Vibrations, the biopic of Terri Hooley who is described as the Godfather of Northern Irish punk.
They followed that with 2019’s Ordinary Love with Liam Neeson and Lesley Manville and then the 2023 Netflix drama, Obsession with Richard Armitage and Charlie Murphy.
Glenn and Lisa chatted to the Irish World during the recent BFI London Film Festival where the film had its London premiere.
Are you football fans? Because you don’t have to be to be interested in this story..
Glenn: “Exactly. I think that’s very much the case.
“I am a football fan and lifelong Liverpool supporter and I think it’s fair to say that Lisa is not a football fan…”
Lisa: “Not a football fan. I don’t dislike football, I am just not an expert.
“I think it was a good way to approach the film: One of us very much having an eye for that aspect of the storytelling. We want it to be a story that football fans can enjoy but also that everyone can enjoy because the themes feel like they are universal in many ways. There were themes to do with national identity, with masculinity, with dreams and how we can sabotage them and so many other things, so it felt like it was a really nice way to approach it as storytellers with that balance of knowledge as far as football is concerned.”
It’s a huge undertaking for Éanna with Roy Keane being such a huge figure..
Lisa: “Very much so.
“Éanna had grown up with Roy as a huge figure in the culture and a huge admirer of Roy so I think he really felt that and I think, because they both come from Cork, there were aspects of that character he really felt he could tune into, that he understood.
“I think he’s a brilliant young actor and he approached it with a lot of respect for who Roy is and wanting to tell a story from his point of view.
“But ultimately when you’re creating a character, you’re not trying to do an impression of that character.
“You find it from what’s in the script and it’s always the story’s version of that character and that’s what he created brilliantly.”
What do you think it is about Roy Keane that people are still so fascinated by? He hasn’t played in 20 years now but continues to make headlines every time he speaks it seems..
Lisa: “They’re fascinated by him.
“In the casting when we were looking for an actor who would play a great version of Roy, we were looking for someone who has just got that ability to change the energy in a room when he walks into it, has the charisma and power.
“I think that there’s something very authentic about Roy and I think that’s one of the things that people respond to.”
Glenn: “Whether you agree with his opinion or not, I think people do really love to hear somebody who’s so forthright with it and in a media where people aren’t forthright with their opinions, it’s very refreshing that somebody speaks honestly and I guess from the heart, from what he believes.”
Lisa: “And there’s humour as well.”
Glenn: “Yeah, you could tell that Roy has it.
“It has to be said Mick clearly has a great sense of humour as well.”
Another reason the story endures is probably because Ireland have not made it to a World Cup since..
Glenn: “I think that definitely is the case.
“The reality is Ireland did really well in that World Cup: Last 16, going out on penalties to Spain, a very good team and there is always that ‘what if?’
“And I suppose that’s why the story sticks around so much, ‘What if Roy had been on that pitch?’
“But then on the flip side of that perhaps Roy leaving bonded the team to a point that got them to the last 16.
“Who knows?”
Lisa: “Yes, lots of different theories about it, even at the time.”
And it wasn’t just football fans who were talking about it, everyone had a view and was picking their side..
Lisa: “It really was.
“Yeah, we’ve listened to a lot of the radio phone ins at the time and I think that the passion and how much people cared was really evident from people who were not football fans at all.
“And again, even at the time people were saying, ‘This is about..
“There were psychologists on the radio shows, there were business experts, there were legal experts talking through those lenses about why it was significant and how they should behave and what it meant about Ireland that these were the actions that were being taken.
“I thought that was fascinating to hear.”
Taoiseach at the time Bertie Ahern tried to intervene but found he couldn’t do anything..
Glenn: “Yes, the Northern Ireland peace process was probably easier.”
Éanna’s performance, of a man getting closer and closer to the edge mostly in his own hotel room, reminded me of Martin Sheen’s Captain Willard in an early scene in Apocalypse Now as the character was also losing his grip wanting to get back into battle. Am I talking rubbish there or was that even a reference point?
Glenn: “Actually that was a reference point.
“Apocalypse Now is one of my favourite films of all time.
“In a production office, we have a wall and we print out stills from films sometimes, or a painting, or whatever is influencing certain aspects of the story.
“We talked to our cinematographer and we were talking about those moments.
“We wouldn’t for a second compare the Vietnam War with what happened on Saipan but definitely there was some commonality in those small moments,” Glenn laughs.
I was also reminded of the film I, Tonya as on the face of it both films are about small and perhaps even mundane incidents that rocked nations..
Glenn: “Yes, that’s again very astute of you because at the start when we started discussing this, we talked about Frost/Nixon and I, Tonya.
“We said that there was something between those two stories.
“So absolutely, I, Tonya is a very good spot there.
“And the other thing too with I, Tonya is I’m not particularly interested in ice-skating and yet, it’s a very compelling and brilliant film.
“On one hand, it’s about ice skating.
“On the other hand, it’s absolutely not.”
Lisa: “It’s a very potent psychological drama.”
Niall McNamee, who plays Alan Kelly, told us in a recent interview that Éanna Hardwicke ‘was not only Roy and the captain of the team in the movie, he was the captain of the movie’, would you agree with that?
Lisa: “Éanna is just the loveliest human being.
“He’s such a generous, gentle, good spirited, great collaborator.
“And you do find on a film set that the way that the lead actors behave really does shape the atmosphere on set.
“In that sense, I think that we had a lovely and harmonious set and I would say that Éanna and Steve were a massive part of that, for sure.”
Have you had reactions from Mick and Roy to the project?
Lisa: “Steve was keen to speak to Mick and Mick was kind enough to talk to him.
“No, it’s up to Mick and Roy whether they watch it.
“That’s something that has got to be their choice and we leave that up to them.”
No reaction from Roy?
Glenn: “Not as yet, no.
“He’s a man who’s well known for being quite outspoken with his opinions.
“But, as Lisa says, we understand it’s their prerogative as to whether or not they want to.”
Lisa: “If they want to watch it or if they want to react to it.”
Did you reach out?
Lisa: “We reached out to both of them.”
Glenn: “Out of courtesy of course we would.
“We wouldn’t make a story about somebody without reaching out and saying, ‘Look, we’re doing this. If you’d like to talk to us and if there are any questions you’d like to ask us..’
“We do that but then it’s up to them whether or not they choose to do that.”
Do you remember where you were when the news of Roy Keane leaving the squad broke?
Glenn: “The news cycle in Ireland was overrun by this: Every radio phone-in, everything was minute to minute, hour to hour (Roy Keane/ Mick McCarthy).
“There wasn’t quite that level of coverage in Belfast but there was a lot.
“I do remember me having Sky Sports News on constant rolling, all the footage of Roy walking the dog.
“I remember that clearly: Him and Triggs every day.
“I remember all of that.
“And there was hysteria.
“And, of course, Stephen Watson, the BBC Northern Ireland sports journalist was the one who got the scoop of Roy standing at the airport, the famous interview of him saying he was going home to his family and he had no regrets.”
Lisa: “We’ve talked to Stephen and he talked about what it was like reporting that and how it was a really significant moment in terms of sports journalism as well.
“I came to this new and I was so fascinated by it because it’s such a very pure piece of drama.
“It’s about these two men on an island and what happens between them and this sort of slow burning collision that they have but it’s also just a window into a lot of stuff, a lot of themes like the ones I’ve mentioned but also about the media and communication and how this is a real moment in the global news cycle where you have this 24 hour news and hunger for that.
“We were hearing stories about how when a new beat in the story came the journalists would be running across to the internet cafe to get dial up internet and send the story back home.
“This was all quite new in a way.
“And how it changed the way that the story was told which also felt like a really interesting part of the story in itself because that really influenced how things developed: That the interview Roy gave was published sooner than anyone was expecting..”
Glenn: “It’s quite funny.
“There’s a bit of radio archive which is in the film and they’re saying, ‘It’s on the covers of the newspapers. It’s been covered by the news channels. It’s even on the internet’ which to our modern ear just sounds funny.”
Lisa: “It’s not very long ago by any standards but it feels like a different world and that felt very interesting because there wasn’t a huge PR machine around the team or anything like that so it was very exposing for the players and everyone at the time.”
The last time we spoke it was about Good Vibrations, do you think there are any commonalities between Roy Keane and Terri Hooley? Perhaps they both had to take a stand when it was difficult to do so..
Lisa: “It’s that sense of just fulfilling who they were as human beings in an authentic way.
“I think there perhaps is a resonance there and that’s why, because it’s hard to do in a complicated world, for anyone and so we are fascinated by characters, I think, who have that sort of courage.”
Glenn: “And I guess Saipan and Good Vibrations maybe do have a few things in common.
“On the surface of it Good Vibrations is about kids in punk bands and a man in the middle of all that but on another layer, hopefully it says a lot about The Troubles and what was going on in Ireland at that time but it just takes it from a different angle.
“I suppose Saipan on the surface of it is about football and these two men but it also speaks about the wider themes as we discussed earlier of nationality, national identity, Irishness, who’s allowed to be Irish? All of these things which I think are really interesting and current so maybe there is that commonality between those two stories.”
Just like the incident itself everyone will have a view on this film because, again, people have such an idea about Keane..
Glenn: “Well much like football, everybody can have opinions about films and that’s just part of it.
“We’ve had lots of positive reactions to the film.”
Lisa: “Our world premiere was in Toronto.
“A North American audience Isn’t necessarily a traditional football one but it seemed to go very well there so we were delighted.
“And in Ireland, there will be specific opinions but as a filmmaker, you’re fortunate to get to make a film and you’re fortunate people are watching it and beyond that, it’s up to them how they react.”
Glenn: “We’re looking forward to sharing it with Irish audiences.
“The home games have yet to come, we’ve played the away leg.”
Do you think Roy Keane’s story could make another film? Would you perhaps consider one on his fallout with Alex Ferguson?
Lisa: “We hadn’t but now we’re gonna think about it, that’s for sure.”
Glenn: “Yeah, Saipan 2.”
Saipan screens at 8.45pm Saturday 15 November at VUE Piccadilly as part of Irish Film Festival London. Irish Film Festival London runs 12- 16 November. Irish World readers can get 20% off by using the code, FRIEND. For more information or to book, click here.
SAIPAN is in cinemas across Ireland and Northern Ireland from January 1 and across the UK from January 23.
